Solar storm to peak Tues - may affect GPS

Discussion in 'Global Navigation Satellite Systems' started by Alan Browne, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Alan Browne, Jan 23, 2012
    #1
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  2. Alan Browne

    charles Guest

    On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:23:29 -0500, Alan Browne
    <> wrote:

    >
    >http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...sday/2012/01/23/gIQAivH6KQ_story.html?hpid=z2



    <from> http://www.spaceweather.com/

    RADIATION STORM IN PROGRESS: Solar protons accelerated by this
    morning's M9-class solar flare are streaming past Earth. On the NOAA
    scale of radiation storms, this one ranks S3, which means it could,
    e.g., cause isolated reboots of computers onboard Earth-orbiting
    satellites and interfere with polar radio communications. An example
    of satellite effects: The "snow" in this SOHO coronagraph movie is
    caused by protons hitting the observatory's onboard camera.

    ALMOST-X FLARE AND CME (UPDATED): This morning, Jan. 23rd around 0359
    UT, big sunspot 1402 erupted, producing a long-duration M9-class solar
    flare. The explosion's M9-ranking puts it on the threshold of being an
    X-flare, the most powerful kind. NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory
    captured the flare's extreme ultraviolet flash:
     
    charles, Jan 23, 2012
    #2
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  3. Alan Browne

    HIPAR Guest

    On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne <>
    wrote:
    > http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/biggest-solar-s...
    >
    > --
    > "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    > Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).


    So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
    energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
    antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
    particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
    frequency energy.

    --- CHAS
     
    HIPAR, Jan 23, 2012
    #3
  4. HIPAR wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<>
    > wrote:
    >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/biggest-solar-s...
    >>
    >> --
    >> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    >> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

    >
    > So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
    > energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
    > antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
    > particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
    > frequency energy.
    >
    > --- CHAS


    VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
    turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
    secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]

    The ion storm is how many amperes?
    Over-current trips are how many amperes?
    Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
    [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
    never used it after leaving school ;)
     
    Richard Owlett, Jan 23, 2012
    #4
  5. Alan Browne

    Mike Coon Guest

    Richard Owlett wrote:
    > VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
    > turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
    > secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
    >
    > The ion storm is how many amperes?
    > Over-current trips are how many amperes?
    > Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
    > [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
    > never used it after leaving school ;)


    And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
    have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
    ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
    too.)

    Mike.
    --
    If reply address is Mike@@mjcoon.+.com (invalid), remove spurious "@"
    and substitute "plus" for +.
     
    Mike Coon, Jan 24, 2012
    #5
  6. Alan Browne

    charles Guest

    On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:00:43 -0000, "Mike Coon" <Mike@@mjcoon.+.com>
    wrote:

    >Richard Owlett wrote:
    >> VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
    >> turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
    >> secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
    >>
    >> The ion storm is how many amperes?
    >> Over-current trips are how many amperes?
    >> Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
    >> [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
    >> never used it after leaving school ;)

    >
    >And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
    >have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
    >ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
    >too.)
    >
    >Mike.



    Not just AC, but changing magnetic fields, which is sort of the same
    thing, but not really.

    An idea of the changing fields for Sunday night can be seen on the
    Aurora Cam at:
    http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronomy/auroramax/gallery_replay.asp
     
    charles, Jan 24, 2012
    #6
  7. Alan Browne

    J. J. Lodder Guest

    "Mike Coon" <Mike@@mjcoon.+.com> wrote:

    > Richard Owlett wrote:
    > > VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
    > > turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
    > > secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
    > >
    > > The ion storm is how many amperes?
    > > Over-current trips are how many amperes?
    > > Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
    > > [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
    > > never used it after leaving school ;)

    >
    > And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
    > have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
    > ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
    > too.)


    It's the magnetic flux that matters.
    And you have a lot of area...

    Jan
     
    J. J. Lodder, Jan 24, 2012
    #7
  8. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-23 18:28 , HIPAR wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<>
    > wrote:
    >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/biggest-solar-s...
    >>
    >> --
    >> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    >> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

    >
    > So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
    > energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
    > antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
    > particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
    > frequency energy.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm

    Quote

    A river of charged particles and electrons in the ionosphere flowed
    from west to east, inducing powerful electrical currents in the
    ground that surged into many natural nooks and crannies.

    /Quote

    Quote

    The utility's very long transmission lines and the fact that most
    of Quebec sits on a large rock shield prevented current flowing
    through the earth, finding a less resistant path along the 735 kV
    power lines.

    /Quote

    Note: My GPS receiver is tracking fine and power is still on in Quebec.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 24, 2012
    #8
  9. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-23 18:28 , HIPAR wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<>
    > wrote:
    >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/biggest-solar-s...
    >>
    >> --
    >> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    >> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

    >
    > So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
    > energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
    > antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
    > particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
    > frequency energy.


    http://spaceweather.com/images2012/24jan12/impulse_strip.jpg

    That ground current, if dissipated naturally, causes little harm.

    However (see my prior post) if the ground is locally resistant, as it is
    in Quebec, then the current finds the lower resisting lines of the power
    grid resulting in trips. Hydro-Quebec has invested greatly in reducing
    the likeliyhood of a trip since the 1989 event.

    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 24, 2012
    #9
  10. Alan Browne wrote:
    >
    > Note: My GPS receiver is tracking fine and power is still on in Quebec.
    >

    I ran a Night O event tonight, near Oslo (60N), I got a very good track
    log from my Garmin 405 watch even though Norway is getting amazing
    Aurora Borealis these days, and the trees were snow-covered :)

    Terje
    --
    - <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
     
    Terje Mathisen, Jan 24, 2012
    #10
  11. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-01-24 17:55 , Terje Mathisen wrote:
    > Alan Browne wrote:
    >>
    >> Note: My GPS receiver is tracking fine and power is still on in Quebec.
    >>

    > I ran a Night O event tonight, near Oslo (60N), I got a very good track
    > log from my Garmin 405 watch even though Norway is getting amazing
    > Aurora Borealis these days, and the trees were snow-covered :)


    I'd like to set up a night-O here, but can't get a copy of O-Cad for
    under $500!


    --
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
    Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 24, 2012
    #11
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