I have read the recent diatribes about the efficacy of TomTom Sat Navs
with some amazement and, often, hilarity.

This weekend I made a return trip of some 400 miles from a rural part of
England to the centre of London and back. This trip took part over
small rural roads, major roads, motorways (freeways) and right through
the centre of London. The outgoing journey meant my arrival in London
coincided with the Friday evening rush-hour and the return journey
started in the comparative quiet of Sunday Morning. At no point in
either journey did my TomTom give me the slightest cause for concern - on
both journeys it helped to drive quickly and efficiently door-to-door.

However, I strongly suspect my journey was enhanced by the following:

1. I appreciate the my TomTom is a driving AID. It is not
intelligent, it cannot think. I follows a set of instructions written
by a programmer from a digital map produced by a cartographer - neither
of whom will ever have seen any of the 100 or so junctions that I was
required to negotiate.

2. My particular model tells me in the top right hand corner the name
and/or number of the road I will be going onto next. I have discovered
another useful driving aid - called traffic/road signs! If I'm in any
doubt about TomTom's instructions I use the road/traffic signs. You see,
I am the intelligent person in my car - not an electronic device.

3. I keep my maps as up to date as possible but realise that no sat nav
can EVER be totally up to date, so I'm not taken by surprise when the
road layout is different from my TomTom. Once again, I use my own
intelligence.

4. TomTom will occasionally say "Right (or Left) Turn Ahead" sometimes
a considerable distance from the turn. This is done to enable me (you)
to position oneself in the correct lane in plenty of time - a really
useful facility particularly in London where the really don't appreciate
you trying to turn left whilst in the right hand lane at a junction.

5. I make sure I have a reasonable idea of roughly where I should be
going when driving into a large city. London has many narrow streets
with tall buildings that block the satellite signal causing my sat nav to
"stutter".

6. If I DO make a wrong turn, then what the hell? My lovely TomTom
will just re-route me back to where I should be going. If this drives
you to distrcaction then perhaps you really shouldn't be driving.

7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
intelligent, it cannot think, it doesn't know they have just made a road
one-way, it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you
changing lanes - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of
intelligence!

Walt

Walt wrote:

> I have read the recent diatribes about the efficacy of TomTom
> Sat Navs with some amazement and, often, hilarity.

> This weekend I made a return trip of some 400 miles from a rural part
> of England to the centre of London and back. This trip took part
> over small rural roads, major roads, motorways (freeways) and right
> through the centre of London. The outgoing journey meant my arrival
> in London coincided with the Friday evening rush-hour and the return
> journey started in the comparative quiet of Sunday Morning. At no
> point in either journey did my TomTom give me the slightest cause for
> concern - on both journeys it helped to drive quickly and efficiently
> door-to-door.

> However, I strongly suspect my journey was enhanced by the following:

> 1. I appreciate the my TomTom is a driving AID. It is not intelligent, it cannot think.

It can be designed to be as intelligent as any car driver, and can
have access to much more information that any car driver can have.

> I follows a set of instructions written by a programmer from a digital
> map produced by a cartographer - neither of whom will ever have
> seen any of the 100 or so junctions that I was required to negotiate.

There is no need to see them when an accurate map is available.

> 2. My particular model tells me in the top right hand corner the
> name and/or number of the road I will be going onto next. I have
> discovered another useful driving aid - called traffic/road signs!

Its much better if you dont need to use those,
because they can be obscured by other traffic etc.

> If I'm in any doubt about TomTom's instructions
> I use the road/traffic signs. You see, I am the
> intelligent person in my car - not an electronic device.

An electronic device can in fact do a lot better than any
human, most obviously with aircraft blind landing systems.

No reason why that cant be done with a car too.

> 3. I keep my maps as up to date as possible but
> realise that no sat nav can EVER be totally up to date,

Thats just plain wrong. If those responsible for changing roads do
update a central database at the time the change is made, and the
owner of the GPS updates the GPS map before leaving, as many
of the latest GPSs can do, they can indeed be totally up to date.

They can even be up to date with short term diversions for road works etc.

> so I'm not taken by surprise when the road layout is different
> from my TomTom. Once again, I use my own intelligence.

> 4. TomTom will occasionally say "Right (or Left) Turn Ahead"
> sometimes a considerable distance from the turn. This is done to
> enable me (you) to position oneself in the correct lane in plenty of time

Its also done where there is just one lane, so you know ahead of time
where the next turn is and dont get told just before the intersection alone.

> - a really useful facility particularly in London where the really don't
> appreciate you trying to turn left whilst in the right hand lane at a junction.

And there is no reason why a well designed GPS system cant tell
you precisely which lane you need to be in for a particular turn etc.

> 5. I make sure I have a reasonable idea of roughly where I should
> be going when driving into a large city. London has many narrow
> streets with tall buildings that block the satellite signal causing my
> sat nav to "stutter".

Even that is possible to design around with the system able to
use other sources of information on where the car has moved
to when the GPS signal is not available for a short time etc.

> 6. If I DO make a wrong turn, then what the hell? My lovely TomTom
> will just re-route me back to where I should be going. If this drives you
> to distrcaction then perhaps you really shouldn't be driving.

> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not intelligent,

It can be much more intelligent than any driver and have much
more information available to it than any driver can ever have.

> it cannot think,

It can think better than any driver can.

> it doesn't know they have just made a road one-way,

It can with maps that are always up to date.

> it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you changing lanes

It can do that too, by observing what the driver is doing.

> - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of intelligence!

No it doesnt.

"Walt" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns9D5F793F42435waltwaltcom@216.196.109.145.. .
>I have read the recent diatribes about the efficacy of TomTom Sat Navs
> with some amazement and, often, hilarity.
>
> This weekend I made a return trip of some 400 miles from a rural part of
> England to the centre of London and back. This trip took part over
> small rural roads, major roads, motorways (freeways) and right through
> the centre of London. The outgoing journey meant my arrival in London
> coincided with the Friday evening rush-hour and the return journey
> started in the comparative quiet of Sunday Morning. At no point in
> either journey did my TomTom give me the slightest cause for concern - on
> both journeys it helped to drive quickly and efficiently door-to-door.
>
> However, I strongly suspect my journey was enhanced by the following:
>
> 1. I appreciate the my TomTom is a driving AID. It is not
> intelligent, it cannot think. I follows a set of instructions written
> by a programmer from a digital map produced by a cartographer - neither
> of whom will ever have seen any of the 100 or so junctions that I was
> required to negotiate.
>
> 2. My particular model tells me in the top right hand corner the name
> and/or number of the road I will be going onto next. I have discovered
> another useful driving aid - called traffic/road signs! If I'm in any
> doubt about TomTom's instructions I use the road/traffic signs. You see,
> I am the intelligent person in my car - not an electronic device.
>
> 3. I keep my maps as up to date as possible but realise that no sat nav
> can EVER be totally up to date, so I'm not taken by surprise when the
> road layout is different from my TomTom. Once again, I use my own
> intelligence.
>
> 4. TomTom will occasionally say "Right (or Left) Turn Ahead" sometimes
> a considerable distance from the turn. This is done to enable me (you)
> to position oneself in the correct lane in plenty of time - a really
> useful facility particularly in London where the really don't appreciate
> you trying to turn left whilst in the right hand lane at a junction.
>
> 5. I make sure I have a reasonable idea of roughly where I should be
> going when driving into a large city. London has many narrow streets
> with tall buildings that block the satellite signal causing my sat nav to
> "stutter".
>
> 6. If I DO make a wrong turn, then what the hell? My lovely TomTom
> will just re-route me back to where I should be going. If this drives
> you to distrcaction then perhaps you really shouldn't be driving.
>
> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
> intelligent, it cannot think, it doesn't know they have just made a road
> one-way, it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you
> changing lanes - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of
> intelligence!
>
> Walt

I am glad you found yours as good as I find mine! The only problems I had
was when it directed me 2 miles to cover 100 yards. Then it tried to direct
me up a footpath on a mountain in Wales. If you go wrong it corrects you
by recalculating. Another thing I use is the speed camera alerts, the
latest
is on Demonoid.com if you search for "pgpsworld". Well it's January so not
that out of date, you just unzip the file to the GB map directory, then go
to
POI controls and enable them all. Then it will scream about speed traps and
red light cameras, even if you have not set a route.
You can submit map corrections too for the benefit of all users. They are
also free to download from TomTom.
Do what I did and bluetooth it to your mobile, that way any traffic
congestion
will be noted and you are guided around it like magic. Or you can select a
garage nearby or anything else you fancy.

"Rod Speed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Walt wrote:
>
>> I have read the recent diatribes about the efficacy of TomTom
>> Sat Navs with some amazement and, often, hilarity.
>
>> This weekend I made a return trip of some 400 miles from a rural part
>> of England to the centre of London and back. This trip took part
>> over small rural roads, major roads, motorways (freeways) and right
>> through the centre of London. The outgoing journey meant my arrival
>> in London coincided with the Friday evening rush-hour and the return
>> journey started in the comparative quiet of Sunday Morning. At no
>> point in either journey did my TomTom give me the slightest cause for
>> concern - on both journeys it helped to drive quickly and efficiently
>> door-to-door.
>
>> However, I strongly suspect my journey was enhanced by the following:
>
>> 1. I appreciate the my TomTom is a driving AID. It is not
>> intelligent, it cannot think.
>
> It can be designed to be as intelligent as any car driver, and can
> have access to much more information that any car driver can have.
>
>> I follows a set of instructions written by a programmer from a digital
>> map produced by a cartographer - neither of whom will ever have
>> seen any of the 100 or so junctions that I was required to negotiate.
>
> There is no need to see them when an accurate map is available.
>
>> 2. My particular model tells me in the top right hand corner the
>> name and/or number of the road I will be going onto next. I have
>> discovered another useful driving aid - called traffic/road signs!
>
> Its much better if you dont need to use those,
> because they can be obscured by other traffic etc.
>
>> If I'm in any doubt about TomTom's instructions
>> I use the road/traffic signs. You see, I am the
>> intelligent person in my car - not an electronic device.
>
> An electronic device can in fact do a lot better than any
> human, most obviously with aircraft blind landing systems.
>
> No reason why that cant be done with a car too.
>
>> 3. I keep my maps as up to date as possible but
>> realise that no sat nav can EVER be totally up to date,
>
> Thats just plain wrong. If those responsible for changing roads do
> update a central database at the time the change is made, and the
> owner of the GPS updates the GPS map before leaving, as many
> of the latest GPSs can do, they can indeed be totally up to date.
>
> They can even be up to date with short term diversions for road works etc.
>
>> so I'm not taken by surprise when the road layout is different
>> from my TomTom. Once again, I use my own intelligence.
>
>> 4. TomTom will occasionally say "Right (or Left) Turn Ahead"
>> sometimes a considerable distance from the turn. This is done to
>> enable me (you) to position oneself in the correct lane in plenty of time
>
> Its also done where there is just one lane, so you know ahead of time
> where the next turn is and dont get told just before the intersection
> alone.
>
>> - a really useful facility particularly in London where the really don't
>> appreciate you trying to turn left whilst in the right hand lane at a
>> junction.
>
> And there is no reason why a well designed GPS system cant tell
> you precisely which lane you need to be in for a particular turn etc.
>
>> 5. I make sure I have a reasonable idea of roughly where I should
>> be going when driving into a large city. London has many narrow
>> streets with tall buildings that block the satellite signal causing my
>> sat nav to "stutter".
>
> Even that is possible to design around with the system able to
> use other sources of information on where the car has moved
> to when the GPS signal is not available for a short time etc.
>
>> 6. If I DO make a wrong turn, then what the hell? My lovely TomTom
>> will just re-route me back to where I should be going. If this drives
>> you
>> to distrcaction then perhaps you really shouldn't be driving.
>
>> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
>> intelligent,
>
> It can be much more intelligent than any driver and have much
> more information available to it than any driver can ever have.
>
>> it cannot think,
>
> It can think better than any driver can.
>
>> it doesn't know they have just made a road one-way,
>
> It can with maps that are always up to date.
>
>> it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you changing lanes
>
> It can do that too, by observing what the driver is doing.
>
>> - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of intelligence!
>
> No it doesnt.
>
>
Oh yes it does you fool!

"John Veldman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:hqielu$kg2$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of intelligence!
>>
>> No it doesnt.
>>
>>
> Oh yes it does you fool!
>
>
If you blindly follow the instructions given then you are, to say the least,
silly.

The Tom Tom is a driving AID which you can ignore if you wish.

Ray Milne.

In article <Xns9D5F793F42435waltwaltcom@216.196.109.145>, (E-Mail Removed)
says...
>
> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
> intelligent, it cannot think, it doesn't know they have just made a road
> one-way, it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you
> changing lanes - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of
> intelligence!
>
>

Ahh - the voice of common sense

--

NightStalker

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed)
says...

..........Good stuff and rubbish snipped

>
> It can think better than any driver can.
>
> > it doesn't know they have just made a road one-way,
>
> It can with maps that are always up to date.
>
> > it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you changing lanes
>
> It can do that too, by observing what the driver is doing.
>
> > - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of intelligence!
>
> No it doesnt.
>
>
>

Good grief - what a load of cobblers! I'd hate to be driving behind (or
with) you if you so blindly follow an electronic gizmo!

Score one for Walt's common sense approach.

If I'm in the bush, I use a GPS, BUT - and it's a huge 'BUT' - I ALWAYS
carry map and compass as well. Being army trained, I am very reliable
with map and compass. The GPS is great, and I use it all the time, but
that map and compass is the backstop for when the batteries run out, the
signal is lost, or it drowns or breaks down. And even the map has to be
used with intelligence, using the real, actual terrain one is standing
on as reality, and accepting that the map is a representation only, and
is only as good as the last cartography survey.

And the same approach goes for town or city driving. What you see is
reality. What is on the GPS is a representation only, and a guide, an
aid, and should be used as such.

--

NightStalker

NightStalker wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed)
> says...
>
> .........Good stuff and rubbish snipped
>
>>
>> It can think better than any driver can.
>>
>>> it doesn't know they have just made a road one-way,
>>
>> It can with maps that are always up to date.
>>
>>> it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you changing
>>> lanes
>>
>> It can do that too, by observing what the driver is doing.
>>
>>> - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of intelligence!
>>
>> No it doesnt.

> Good grief - what a load of cobblers! I'd hate to be driving
> behind (or with) you if you so blindly follow an electronic gizmo!

I dont, ****wit.

> If I'm in the bush, I use a GPS, BUT - and it's a huge
> 'BUT' - I ALWAYS carry map and compass as well.

More fool you. Anyone with even half a clue doesnt need a
map and compass and even if the GPS does fail, can always
get to where they want to go without the map and compass.

> Being army trained, I am very reliable with map and compass.

Only a fool needs one.

> The GPS is great, and I use it all the time, but that map and compass is the
> backstop for when the batteries run out, the signal is lost, or it drowns or breaks down.

Only a fool needs one most of the time and the absolute worst that can happen
if it fails that that you might have to backtrack back the way you came.

You're too stupid to be able to manage that ? Your problem.

AND it makes a hell of a lot more sense to have more
than one GPS if you're that ****ing incompetant anyway.

> And even the map has to be used with intelligence,
> using the real, actual terrain one is standing on as reality,
> and accepting that the map is a representation only,
> and is only as good as the last cartography survey.

However the worst it can be is out in a minor way,
and that is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

And that is a separate matter to what is being discussed
anyway, TURN BY TURN INSTRUCTIONS ON ROADS.

> And the same approach goes for town or city driving.

Nope, only a fool bothers with a compass for those.

> What you see is reality.

The whole point of a GPS is that it tells you about what you cant currently see, fool.

> What is on the GPS is a representation only,
> and a guide, an aid, and should be used as such.

Only by fools. You qualify.

"Walt" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns9D5F793F42435waltwaltcom@216.196.109.145.. .
> I have read the recent diatribes about the efficacy of TomTom Sat Navs
> with some amazement and, often, hilarity.
>
> This weekend I made a return trip of some 400 miles from a rural part of
> England to the centre of London and back. This trip took part over
> small rural roads, major roads, motorways (freeways) and right through
> the centre of London. The outgoing journey meant my arrival in London
> coincided with the Friday evening rush-hour and the return journey
> started in the comparative quiet of Sunday Morning. At no point in
> either journey did my TomTom give me the slightest cause for concern - on
> both journeys it helped to drive quickly and efficiently door-to-door.
>
> However, I strongly suspect my journey was enhanced by the following:
>
> 1. I appreciate the my TomTom is a driving AID. It is not
> intelligent, it cannot think. I follows a set of instructions written
> by a programmer from a digital map produced by a cartographer - neither
> of whom will ever have seen any of the 100 or so junctions that I was
> required to negotiate.
>
> 2. My particular model tells me in the top right hand corner the name
> and/or number of the road I will be going onto next. I have discovered
> another useful driving aid - called traffic/road signs! If I'm in any
> doubt about TomTom's instructions I use the road/traffic signs. You see,
> I am the intelligent person in my car - not an electronic device.
>
> 3. I keep my maps as up to date as possible but realise that no sat nav
> can EVER be totally up to date, so I'm not taken by surprise when the
> road layout is different from my TomTom. Once again, I use my own
> intelligence.
>
> 4. TomTom will occasionally say "Right (or Left) Turn Ahead" sometimes
> a considerable distance from the turn. This is done to enable me (you)
> to position oneself in the correct lane in plenty of time - a really
> useful facility particularly in London where the really don't appreciate
> you trying to turn left whilst in the right hand lane at a junction.
>
> 5. I make sure I have a reasonable idea of roughly where I should be
> going when driving into a large city. London has many narrow streets
> with tall buildings that block the satellite signal causing my sat nav to
> "stutter".
>
> 6. If I DO make a wrong turn, then what the hell? My lovely TomTom
> will just re-route me back to where I should be going. If this drives
> you to distrcaction then perhaps you really shouldn't be driving.
>
> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
> intelligent, it cannot think, it doesn't know they have just made a road
> one-way, it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you
> changing lanes - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of
> intelligence!

Do you know Walt, I think this is the first ever time (over the last decade
or so) when I'm in total agreement with you (quickly rush away, take
temperature, blood pressure, heart rate, check dates, make sure I've taken
my medication...yep all correct). It's the nut behind the wheel who causes
most of the problems not the sat nav.

One thing about point 5, you can get a supplementary aerial for most TT
which does help a great deal with the intermittent blockage of signals (I
had one one for my old 700 unit). Also some of the more modern models are
pretty good at making educated guesses if the signals do get blocked for a
short time ( as with my 920)

Ce cher Walt <(E-Mail Removed)> a posté :

> [...]
> 7. And finally, I repeat, any sat nav is a driving aid, it is not
> intelligent, it cannot think, it doesn't know they have just made a road
> one-way, it cannot take into account other vehicles preventing you
> changing lanes - but it DOES require the driver to have a modicum of
> intelligence!

I totally agree with your full post, that's most of the remarks I made
myself *before* buying a GPS, and I do not regret buying it since ever...
(That's almost the same remarks I made before, telling others that I
didn't see why I *should* buy a GPS - since I'm a computer engineer, I
know what I'm talking about !! )

And I'll add some other point :

8/ an electronic device is subject to deficiency ! Paper map will always
be helpful, and most of all, *preparation* of the trip is one of the
best things to do before taking the road..


Have good trips,
--
Hugues Hiegel [http://www.hiegel.fr/~hugues/]