GPS Forums


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes

Solar storm to peak Tues - may affect GPS

 
 
Alan Browne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-23-2012, 07:23 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...y.html?hpid=z2

--
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
charles
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-23-2012, 11:21 PM
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:23:29 -0500, Alan Browne
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...y.html?hpid=z2



<from> http://www.spaceweather.com/

RADIATION STORM IN PROGRESS: Solar protons accelerated by this
morning's M9-class solar flare are streaming past Earth. On the NOAA
scale of radiation storms, this one ranks S3, which means it could,
e.g., cause isolated reboots of computers onboard Earth-orbiting
satellites and interfere with polar radio communications. An example
of satellite effects: The "snow" in this SOHO coronagraph movie is
caused by protons hitting the observatory's onboard camera.

ALMOST-X FLARE AND CME (UPDATED): This morning, Jan. 23rd around 0359
UT, big sunspot 1402 erupted, producing a long-duration M9-class solar
flare. The explosion's M9-ranking puts it on the threshold of being an
X-flare, the most powerful kind. NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory
captured the flare's extreme ultraviolet flash:
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
HIPAR
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-23-2012, 11:28 PM
On Jan 23, 2:23*pm, Alan Browne <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...iggest-solar-s...
>
> --
> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).


So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
frequency energy.

--- CHAS
 
Reply With Quote
 
Richard Owlett
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-23-2012, 11:55 PM
HIPAR wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...iggest-solar-s...
>>
>> --
>> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
>> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

>
> So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
> energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
> antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
> particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
> frequency energy.
>
> --- CHAS


VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]

The ion storm is how many amperes?
Over-current trips are how many amperes?
Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
[In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
never used it after leaving school

 
Reply With Quote
 
Mike Coon
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 12:00 AM
Richard Owlett wrote:
> VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
> turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
> secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
>
> The ion storm is how many amperes?
> Over-current trips are how many amperes?
> Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
> [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
> never used it after leaving school


And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
too.)

Mike.
--
If reply address is Mike@@mjcoon.+.com (invalid), remove spurious "@"
and substitute "plus" for +.


 
Reply With Quote
 
charles
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 06:10 AM
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:00:43 -0000, "Mike Coon" <Mike@@mjcoon.+.com>
wrote:

>Richard Owlett wrote:
>> VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
>> turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
>> secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
>>
>> The ion storm is how many amperes?
>> Over-current trips are how many amperes?
>> Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
>> [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
>> never used it after leaving school

>
>And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
>have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
>ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
>too.)
>
>Mike.



Not just AC, but changing magnetic fields, which is sort of the same
thing, but not really.

An idea of the changing fields for Sunday night can be seen on the
Aurora Cam at:
http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astrono...ery_replay.asp
 
Reply With Quote
 
J. J. Lodder
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 10:07 AM
"Mike Coon" <Mike@@mjcoon.+.com> wrote:

> Richard Owlett wrote:
> > VERY SIMPLISTICALLY think of ions as current through a 1
> > turn primary of a loosely coupled transformer whose n-turn
> > secondary is the power grid [ n > 0 ;]
> >
> > The ion storm is how many amperes?
> > Over-current trips are how many amperes?
> > Just how tight does coupling have to be to create problems ;/
> > [In mid 20th century I knew how to do that calculation -
> > never used it after leaving school

>
> And what frequency is involved? Transformers don't work at DC. Usually you
> have to have quite high frequencies to get good coupling with no
> ferro-magnetic material... (I only vaguely remember the qualitative stuff,
> too.)


It's the magnetic flux that matters.
And you have a lot of area...

Jan
 
Reply With Quote
 
Alan Browne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 04:43 PM
On 2012-01-23 18:28 , HIPAR wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...iggest-solar-s...
>>
>> --
>> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
>> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

>
> So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
> energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
> antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
> particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
> frequency energy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1...magnetic_storm

Quote

A river of charged particles and electrons in the ionosphere flowed
from west to east, inducing powerful electrical currents in the
ground that surged into many natural nooks and crannies.

/Quote

Quote

The utility's very long transmission lines and the fact that most
of Quebec sits on a large rock shield prevented current flowing
through the earth, finding a less resistant path along the 735 kV
power lines.

/Quote

Note: My GPS receiver is tracking fine and power is still on in Quebec.

--
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
 
Reply With Quote
 
Alan Browne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 04:56 PM
On 2012-01-23 18:28 , HIPAR wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2:23 pm, Alan Browne<(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...iggest-solar-s...
>>
>> --
>> "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
>> Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).

>
> So what's the physics behind power surges on the electrical grid? The
> energetic particles aren't electromagnetic radiation so it's not an
> antenna phenomena. Perhaps something like EMP where the charged
> particles move along the magnetic lines of force generating radio
> frequency energy.


http://spaceweather.com/images2012/2...ulse_strip.jpg

That ground current, if dissipated naturally, causes little harm.

However (see my prior post) if the ground is locally resistant, as it is
in Quebec, then the current finds the lower resisting lines of the power
grid resulting in trips. Hydro-Quebec has invested greatly in reducing
the likeliyhood of a trip since the 1989 event.

--
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
Douglas Adams - (Could have been a GPS engineer).
 
Reply With Quote
 
Terje Mathisen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-24-2012, 10:55 PM
Alan Browne wrote:
>
> Note: My GPS receiver is tracking fine and power is still on in Quebec.
>

I ran a Night O event tonight, near Oslo (60N), I got a very good track
log from my Garmin 405 watch even though Norway is getting amazing
Aurora Borealis these days, and the trees were snow-covered :-)

Terje
--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Solar storm knocks out GPS? Dnk 42 General GPS Discussion 4 04-12-2012 03:20 PM
Big Solar Storm, Little GPS Effect Sam Wormley Global Navigation Satellite Systems 0 02-02-2012 12:24 AM
Solar Storms Affect GPS John General GPS Discussion 1 12-31-2005 02:53 AM
STORM IN PROGRESS: A severe geomagnetic storm is in progress on Oct.30th Sam Wormley Global Navigation Satellite Systems 3 10-31-2003 03:40 AM
Does solar activity affect acquisition? Peter Hamilton-Scott General GPS Discussion 5 09-21-2003 02:47 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:25 AM.