I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill walking
holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are crap,
which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my way
around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav to
have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps. Any
guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.

Cliff Coggin.

In message <A7hvp.45323$(E-Mail Removed)2>, Cliff Coggin
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill walking
>holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are crap,
>which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my way
>around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
>problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav to
>have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps. Any
>guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>
>Cliff Coggin.
>
>
If you've got a modern touch-screen phone; with either the Symbian,
Android or (for the fashion-istas) the i-Phone operating system, then
the Viewranger application with OS mapping is excellent. The OS
1:25,000 map prices are high though, but sadly that is to be expected.
It proves to be very accurate on my Nokia 5800, and shows that the ROW
green dotted lines on the map do not always show the actual route on the
ground.
--
Chris Morriss

Cliff Coggin wrote on May 1, 2011:

> I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill walking
> holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are crap,
> which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my way
> around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
> problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav to
> have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps. Any
> guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>

I use a Garmin handheld gps when walking, but I don't usually have any maps
installed on it, since I always carry a paper map and compass as well. I use
the gps mainly for its primary purpose - which is simply to display one's
current position. The Garmin will display your position in OS grid
coordinates (or any other system you choose), so it's a simple matter to
pin-point your position on the paper map. It will also keep a tracklog of
your movements, so that you can easily retrace your steps, and find your way
back to your starting point when necessary.

It's very unwise to rely on a gps alone for navigation in any circumstances,
but especially so if you're many miles from civilization. There's just too
much that can go wrong with a gps, and they don't work too well in
mountainous areas - the multiple reflections from rock faces play havoc with
the accuracy.

--
Mike Lane
UK North Yorkshire
mike_lane at mac dot com

"Chris Morriss" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> the Viewranger application with OS mapping is excellent. The OS 1:25,000
> map prices are high though, but sadly that is to be expected. It proves to
> be very accurate on my Nokia 5800, and shows that the ROW green dotted
> lines on the map do not always show the actual route on the ground.

How do you know that it's errors in the map and not in the position that the
GPS reports? My girlfriend has a 5800 and Viewranger, and we've seen
occasions when the route that we've walked doesn't match the footpath
printed on the OS map, but we've never known which is correct. I've seen
situations with the 5800 where the track follows the course of a
road/footpath but is displaced maybe 50 or 100 metres off to one side, and
then suddenly the track veers sharply and starts to follow the road
correctly.

I can imagine that GPS will be prone to random errors about the correct
position (causing a straight line to become a series of wiggles), but is it
plausible than it can experience systematic errors (the same bias added to a
whole series of readings)?

"Mike Lane" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) dia.com...
> Cliff Coggin wrote on May 1, 2011:
>
>> I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill
>> walking
>> holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are
>> crap,
>> which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my
>> way
>> around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
>> problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav
>> to
>> have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps.
>> Any
>> guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>>
>
> I use a Garmin handheld gps when walking, but I don't usually have any
> maps
> installed on it, since I always carry a paper map and compass as well. I
> use
> the gps mainly for its primary purpose - which is simply to display one's
> current position. The Garmin will display your position in OS grid
> coordinates (or any other system you choose), so it's a simple matter to
> pin-point your position on the paper map. It will also keep a tracklog of
> your movements, so that you can easily retrace your steps, and find your
> way
> back to your starting point when necessary.
>
> It's very unwise to rely on a gps alone for navigation in any
> circumstances,
> but especially so if you're many miles from civilization. There's just too
> much that can go wrong with a gps, and they don't work too well in
> mountainous areas - the multiple reflections from rock faces play havoc
> with
> the accuracy.
>
> --
> Mike Lane
> UK North Yorkshire
> mike_lane at mac dot com

Thank you Mike. If your conclusion is that the satnavs are unreliable then I
shan't bother to waste money on one, and will continue to use paper maps
alone, there being no point in carrying both an electronic gadget and a map.

That would be a shame because my experience of using satnavs at sea until
four years ago with perfect equanimity was one of utter reliability and
exceptional accuracy. In a tiny inflatable boat in the middle of the English
Channel paper charts disintegrated within minutes so satnav had to be
reliable. Their accuracy improved enormously once Selective Availability was
turned off during the first Gulf war.

Cliff.

On 01/05/2011 18:54, Cliff Coggin wrote:
> I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill walking
> holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are crap,
> which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my way
> around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
> problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav to
> have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps. Any
> guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>
> Cliff Coggin.
>
>
If you've got an Iphone you can see where you are pretty well on the
google earth maps. Of course you need to be in a 3g reception area for
this to work. Regarding GPS accuracy, my tracker almost always has me
riding on the other side of the hedge when I review my bike rides, maybe
20 feet adrift.

On 01/05/2011 18:54, Cliff Coggin wrote:
> I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill walking
> holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are crap,
> which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my way
> around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
> problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav to
> have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps. Any
> guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>
> Cliff Coggin.
>
>

I've recently bought one of these
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0049A2S7...9241_pe_epc_t1
which I reckon is the bees knees (although I didn't get it from Amazon)

It comes with a built-in 'base' map of the world and with an OS 1:50000
map of the whole of the UK on an SD card. You can also buy 1:25000 maps
of selected parts of the UK, but they are quite expensive - and may not
be necessary because you can zoom into the 50k maps to be larger than
life. It also comes with rechargeable batteries which last for many hours.

You get access to Satmap's on-line route planner - which provided a
convenient method of planning routes, which can be downloaded onto the
device. [You can plan routes on the device itself, but it's a bit more
cumbersome] I believe that you can plan routes on Google Earth and/or
upload your tracks to Google Earth to see where you've been - but I
haven't explored these features very much thus far.

It's purposely *not* touch sensitive - you operate it with buttons and a
joystick, which is much more robust.

Although it seems very reliable, you should always carry a paper map and
compass as a backup - as with *any* GPS device - but you're unlikely to
need to fish them out of the bottom of your rucksack.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Mon, 2 May 2011 07:41:20 +0100, "Mortimer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I can imagine that GPS will be prone to random errors about the correct
>position (causing a straight line to become a series of wiggles), but is it
>plausible than it can experience systematic errors (the same bias added to a
>whole series of readings)?

My Garmin etrex Vista HCX shows this effect; I often find myself
walking along tracks that are about 10 metres to one side
(consistently) compared to the map.

I don't have sufficient experience or knowledge about GPS and maps to
figure out what is going on.

If I needed to be certain, I would probably visit some locations whose
location was guaranteed, such as the line at the Greenwich
Observatory, and trig points.

--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

"Roger Mills" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 01/05/2011 18:54, Cliff Coggin wrote:
>> I am looking to buy my first hand held satnav for navigation on hill
>> walking
>> holidays in the UK. All the reviews I have read suggest the maps are
>> crap,
>> which hardly inspires confidence in the gadgets as a way of finding my
>> way
>> around miles away from roads. Does anybody know of a solution to this
>> problem? Has the problem been exagerated? Ideally I would like the satnav
>> to
>> have Ordnance Survey based maps so they can be compared to paper maps.
>> Any
>> guidance (sic) would be appreciated by this techno-neophyte.
>>
>> Cliff Coggin.
>>
>>
>
> I've recently bought one of these
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0049A2S7...9241_pe_epc_t1
> which I reckon is the bees knees (although I didn't get it from Amazon)
>
> It comes with a built-in 'base' map of the world and with an OS 1:50000
> map of the whole of the UK on an SD card. You can also buy 1:25000 maps of
> selected parts of the UK, but they are quite expensive - and may not be
> necessary because you can zoom into the 50k maps to be larger than life.
> It also comes with rechargeable batteries which last for many hours.
>
> You get access to Satmap's on-line route planner - which provided a
> convenient method of planning routes, which can be downloaded onto the
> device. [You can plan routes on the device itself, but it's a bit more
> cumbersome] I believe that you can plan routes on Google Earth and/or
> upload your tracks to Google Earth to see where you've been - but I
> haven't explored these features very much thus far.
>
> It's purposely *not* touch sensitive - you operate it with buttons and a
> joystick, which is much more robust.
>
> Although it seems very reliable, you should always carry a paper map and
> compass as a backup - as with *any* GPS device - but you're unlikely to
> need to fish them out of the bottom of your rucksack.
> --
> Cheers,
> Roger

I had not come across Satmap so far Roger and they look interesting. I
particularly like the large screen, though that comes at a high cost and a
heavy weight. Do you carry it or hang it round your neck on a lanyard? Is it
very cumbersome?

Cliff.

In message <(E-Mail Removed) >, Mortimer
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>"Chris Morriss" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> the Viewranger application with OS mapping is excellent. The OS
>>1:25,000 map prices are high though, but sadly that is to be
>>expected. It proves to be very accurate on my Nokia 5800, and shows
>>that the ROW green dotted lines on the map do not always show the
>>actual route on the ground.
>
>How do you know that it's errors in the map and not in the position
>that the GPS reports? My girlfriend has a 5800 and Viewranger, and
>we've seen occasions when the route that we've walked doesn't match the
>footpath printed on the OS map, but we've never known which is correct.
>I've seen situations with the 5800 where the track follows the course
>of a road/footpath but is displaced maybe 50 or 100 metres off to one
>side, and then suddenly the track veers sharply and starts to follow
>the road correctly.
>
>I can imagine that GPS will be prone to random errors about the correct
>position (causing a straight line to become a series of wiggles), but
>is it plausible than it can experience systematic errors (the same bias
>added to a whole series of readings)?

There's one walk I have done three different times with the GPS on, and
in one particular area it gives (almost) the same track, which is
different from the one marked on the 1:25000 OS map.
--
Chris Morriss