Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System

http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...v-system-12375

December 6, 2011

"The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
(GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".

See:
http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...v-system-12375

On Dec 8, 2:32*pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>
> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> December 6, 2011
>
> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>
> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi....

Thanks Sam,

The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
their advantage.
Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
practices.

Marcelo Pacheco

On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>>
>> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>
>> December 6, 2011
>>
>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>>
>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> Thanks Sam,
>
> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
> their advantage.

http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712

> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
> practices.

The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
gravitate to low prices).

For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.

Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.

--
"I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>>>
>>> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>>
>>> December 6, 2011
>>>
>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>>>
>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Sam,
>>
>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
>> their advantage.
>
> http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>
>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
>> practices.
>
> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
> gravitate to low prices).
>
> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>
> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>

I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.

On 2011-12-10 01:15 , miso wrote:
> On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
>>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> December 6, 2011
>>>>
>>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
>>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
>>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
>>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
>>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
>>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
>>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic
>>>> orbit.
>>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
>>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
>>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>>>>
>>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Sam,
>>>
>>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
>>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
>>> their advantage.
>>
>> http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>>
>>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
>>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
>>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
>>> practices.
>>
>> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
>> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
>> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
>> gravitate to low prices).
>>
>> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
>> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>>
>> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>>
>
> I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
> often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
> Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
> Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.

GPS's use dedicated hardware correlator channels driven by software to
detect and track the signal. It is relatively cheap and easy to add
channels although those for GPS are different than those for GLONASS and
will also be different for Galileo and Compass. Some GPS receivers that
cost a few dollars (in bulk) have about 60 channels. When future civil
channels are added they will require more hardware channels as well.

They are cheap and are not usually DSP|SDR (it's just not the cheapest
way to go, esp. for low power consumption devices).

So, you can indeed have "more" and not lose anything at all. The
question then becomes optimizing the algorithms to truly get the best
information for position determination.

In GPS it's called "over determination". But unless craftily
implemented, using all sources for a position fix could lead to a
greater error when the worst satellite PR's are used with the best. An
example is mixing GPS with GLONASS (the later being a little less
accurate than GPS at present).

Smartphones that I know of use very low power GPS devices and are also
driven "lazily" to conserve power. That aside, the performance of my
iPhone 4 as a GPS is more than adequate for what it was designed to do
(get me to the restaurant). In comparing with dedicated GPS', it has an
error range of about 5-20 metres where the dedicated GPS is 3-5 metres
in the same conditions. The newer iPhone 4S also has GLONASS so
presumably acquires quicker, but if driven lazily, is probably not more
accurate than the iPhone 4.

--
"I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

On Dec 10, 4:15*am, miso <m...@sushi.com> wrote:
> On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
> >> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>
> >>>http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi....
>
> >>> December 6, 2011
>
> >>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
> >>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
> >>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
> >>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
> >>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
> >>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
> >>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
> >>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
> >>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
> >>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>
> >>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> >> Thanks Sam,
>
> >> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
> >> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
> >> their advantage.
>
> >http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>
> >> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
> >> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
> >> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
> >> practices.
>
> > The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull..
> > In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
> > are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
> > gravitate to low prices).
>
> > For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
> > Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>
> > Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan..
>
> I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
> often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
> Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
> Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing..

SDR don't make a lot of sense for circuitry planned to sell millions
(if not tens of millions) units over the next few years.
Specially for single frequency equipment that have no requirement for
field upgrades.
Besides companies like Garmin force customers to buy brand new units
to get new features. When was the last time you saw a software upgrade
for any Garmin handheld ? Products in the multi thousand dollar range
do get some paid upgrades, but not <1000 USD products.
SDRs are great for open flexible products and perhaps some low volume
specialized receivers.
In anything planned to ship millions of units bill of materials cost
is paramount. The more functionality can be integrated into one large
combo chip, the better.
SDRs make sense for multi frequency, multi purpose stuff.

Marcelo Pacheco

On Dec 10, 12:47*pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca>
wrote:
> On 2011-12-10 01:15 , miso wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> >> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
> >>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>
> >>>>http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi....
>
> >>>> December 6, 2011
>
> >>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
> >>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
> >>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
> >>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
> >>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
> >>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
> >>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic
> >>>> orbit.
> >>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
> >>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
> >>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>
> >>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> >>> Thanks Sam,
>
> >>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
> >>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
> >>> their advantage.
>
> >>http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>
> >>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
> >>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
> >>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
> >>> practices.
>
> >> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
> >> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
> >> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
> >> gravitate to low prices).
>
> >> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
> >> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>
> >> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>
> > I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
> > often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
> > Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none..
> > Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.
>
> GPS's use dedicated hardware correlator channels driven by software to
> detect and track the signal. *It is relatively cheap and easy to add
> channels although those for GPS are different than those for GLONASS and
> will also be different for Galileo and Compass. *Some GPS receivers that
> cost a few dollars (in bulk) have about 60 channels. *When future civil
> channels are added they will require more hardware channels as well.
>
> They are cheap and are not usually DSP|SDR (it's just not the cheapest
> way to go, esp. for low power consumption devices).
>
> So, you can indeed have "more" and not lose anything at all. *The
> question then becomes optimizing the algorithms to truly get the best
> information for position determination.
>
> In GPS it's called "over determination". *But unless craftily
> implemented, using all sources for a position fix could lead to a
> greater error when the worst satellite PR's are used with the best. *An
> example is mixing GPS with GLONASS (the later being a little less
> accurate than GPS at present).
>
> Smartphones that I know of use very low power GPS devices and are also
> driven "lazily" to conserve power. *That aside, the performance of my
> iPhone 4 as a GPS is more than adequate for what it was designed to do
> (get me to the restaurant). *In comparing with dedicated GPS', it has an
> error range of about 5-20 metres where the dedicated GPS is 3-5 metres
> in the same conditions. *The newer iPhone 4S also has GLONASS so
> presumably acquires quicker, but if driven lazily, is probably not more
> accurate than the iPhone 4.
>
> --
> "I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

Interesting your statement that GLONASS accuracy is lower than GPS.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just to raise the fact that PDOP
charts for GLONASS actually look better than those for GPS.
Sources:
GPS: http://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/incoming/NA_MaxPDOP.png
GLONASS: http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...15-years-12379
Of course PDOP is about signal geometry, it doesn't take into account
individual satellite clock+ephemeris performance.
Hopefully in another 2-3 of years, the older half of GLONASS
satellites will be replaced, which will improve clock performance
quite a bit.

For instance PRN1 performance isn't great, while PRN25 is performing
great. Hopefully the issues on PRN1 (IIF-2) are a one bird issue that
will be avoided in the future. Source: http://adn.agi.com/GNSSWeb/PAFPSFViewer.aspx
(the last chart shows user range error assessment).

Marcelo

On 12/10/2011 1:40 PM, macpacheco wrote:
> On Dec 10, 4:15 am, miso<m...@sushi.com> wrote:
>> On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
>>>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>>
>>>>> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>
>>>>> December 6, 2011
>>
>>>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
>>>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
>>>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
>>>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
>>>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
>>>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
>>>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
>>>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
>>>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
>>>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>>
>>>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>
>>>> Thanks Sam,
>>
>>>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
>>>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
>>>> their advantage.
>>
>>> http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>>
>>>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
>>>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
>>>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
>>>> practices.
>>
>>> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
>>> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
>>> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
>>> gravitate to low prices).
>>
>>> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
>>> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>>
>>> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>>
>> I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
>> often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
>> Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
>> Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.
>
> SDR don't make a lot of sense for circuitry planned to sell millions
> (if not tens of millions) units over the next few years.
> Specially for single frequency equipment that have no requirement for
> field upgrades.
> Besides companies like Garmin force customers to buy brand new units
> to get new features. When was the last time you saw a software upgrade
> for any Garmin handheld ? Products in the multi thousand dollar range
> do get some paid upgrades, but not<1000 USD products.
> SDRs are great for open flexible products and perhaps some low volume
> specialized receivers.
> In anything planned to ship millions of units bill of materials cost
> is paramount. The more functionality can be integrated into one large
> combo chip, the better.
> SDRs make sense for multi frequency, multi purpose stuff.
>
> Marcelo Pacheco

I flashed my emap more times that I can remember. I don't recall if I
ever flashed the GPSMap60.

Incidentally, my Blackberry GPS claims 2 meter EPE. Reality, who knows.
It just bugs me to see people use smartphones as GPSs on the trails.
Depending on a phone gps is a bad idea. For one thing, slapping in a set
of AA cells isn't so simple. I have one of those AA to USB power
sources. Never even cracked open the plastic, but I carried it for a few
years for emergency purposes. When the EU forced all phones to go
microusb, I didn't bother to get another one.

A friend was trying to locate some coordinates with her iphone. Easily
off 50ft. I gave her an old Lowrance.

It used to be in the day if somebody gave you some coordinates, you
could trust them. Nowadays you have to ask what gear they used to get
the coordinates.

On Dec 10, 8:47*pm, miso <m...@sushi.com> wrote:
> On 12/10/2011 1:40 PM, macpacheco wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 4:15 am, miso<m...@sushi.com> *wrote:
> >> On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>
> >>> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
> >>>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> *wrote:
> >>>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>
> >>>>>http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> >>>>> December 6, 2011
>
> >>>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
> >>>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
> >>>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket withthe
> >>>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
> >>>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
> >>>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
> >>>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
> >>>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
> >>>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
> >>>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>
> >>>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>
> >>>> Thanks Sam,
>
> >>>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
> >>>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
> >>>> their advantage.
>
> >>>http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>
> >>>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
> >>>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
> >>>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
> >>>> practices.
>
> >>> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
> >>> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
> >>> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
> >>> gravitate to low prices).
>
> >>> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
> >>> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>
> >>> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>
> >> I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
> >> often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
> >> Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
> >> Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.
>
> > SDR don't make a lot of sense for circuitry planned to sell millions
> > (if not tens of millions) units over the next few years.
> > Specially for single frequency equipment that have no requirement for
> > field upgrades.
> > Besides companies like Garmin force customers to buy brand new units
> > to get new features. When was the last time you saw a software upgrade
> > for any Garmin handheld ? Products in the multi thousand dollar range
> > do get some paid upgrades, but not<1000 USD products.
> > SDRs are great for open flexible products and perhaps some low volume
> > specialized receivers.
> > In anything planned to ship millions of units bill of materials cost
> > is paramount. The more functionality can be integrated into one large
> > combo chip, the better.
> > SDRs make sense for multi frequency, multi purpose stuff.
>
> > Marcelo Pacheco
>
> I flashed my emap more times that I can remember. I don't recall if I
> ever flashed the GPSMap60.
>
> Incidentally, my Blackberry GPS claims 2 meter EPE. Reality, who knows.
> It just bugs me to see people use smartphones as GPSs on the trails.
> Depending on a phone gps is a bad idea. For one thing, slapping in a set
> of AA cells isn't so simple. I have one of those AA to USB power
> sources. Never even cracked open the plastic, but I carried it for a few
> years for emergency purposes. When the EU forced all phones to go
> microusb, I didn't bother to get another one.
>
> A friend was trying to locate some coordinates with her iphone. Easily
> off 50ft. I gave her an old Lowrance.
>
> It used to be in the day if somebody gave you some coordinates, you
> could trust them. Nowadays you have to ask what gear they used to get
> the coordinates.

Did any of those re-flashing were for new functionality ? Bug fixes
maybe. But new functionality, I think not...

All kinds of devices should be built with the physical equipment
designed to at least 5 yrs, allowing the customer to upgrade to use
new functionality often.

That's cheaper for the consumer, better for the environment, and might
even be more profitable for the manufacturer.

10 yrs ago this might not be possible, even 5 yrs ago might have been
a challenge. But today with very powerful low power consumption CPUs
and DSPs, it would make far more sense to do it that way.

One can hope.

On 12/10/2011 3:56 PM, macpacheco wrote:
> On Dec 10, 8:47 pm, miso<m...@sushi.com> wrote:
>> On 12/10/2011 1:40 PM, macpacheco wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 10, 4:15 am, miso<m...@sushi.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/8/2011 1:14 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 2011-12-08 15:48 , macpacheco wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 8, 2:32 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Beidou Launch Completes *Regional* Nav System
>>
>>>>>>> http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>
>>>>>>> December 6, 2011
>>
>>>>>>> "The Beidou-2/Compass IGSO-5 (fifth inclined geosynchonous orbit)
>>>>>>> satellite was launched on December 1 from Xichang, China. Exact launch
>>>>>>> time was 21:07:04.189 UTC. The third stage of the CZ-3A rocket with the
>>>>>>> satellite attached achieved a geosynchronous transfer orbit and the
>>>>>>> satellite subsequently separated according to NORAD/JSpOC. As of
>>>>>>> December 7, the satellite is still in geosynchronous transfer orbit
>>>>>>> (GTO), orbiting the Earth about twice a day with a highly eliptic orbit.
>>>>>>> To get to geosynchronous orbit, the satellite's apogee kick motor will
>>>>>>> have to be fired. The satellite is not drifting to its intended orbit,
>>>>>>> for example, like a GLONASS satellite might".
>>
>>>>>>> See:http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/...completes-regi...
>>
>>>>>> Thanks Sam,
>>
>>>>>> The persistent question is where is the ICD !!!
>>>>>> Per the usual China stonewalls the open market every time it's to
>>>>>> their advantage.
>>
>>>>> http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1712
>>
>>>>>> Boycott Compass. Boycott China (to the largest extent possible).
>>>>>> We must make them hurts somehow, so they understand the only
>>>>>> acceptable behavior is to be open, democratic, and fair trading
>>>>>> practices.
>>
>>>>> The Chinese will never espouse fair trade, it is a one-way blanket pull.
>>>>> In the meantime avoid buying from them (you can't boycott 100% - they
>>>>> are into everything at the lowest cost and buyers around the world
>>>>> gravitate to low prices).
>>
>>>>> For satellite positioning the best thing is to wait until someone like
>>>>> Garmin makes a receiver with GPS+GLONASS+Galileo+Beidou-2.
>>
>>>>> Garmin for example (at least to present) make their receivers in Taiwan.
>>
>>>> I assume current generation of GPSs are heavily DSP if not SDR, but
>>>> often the more things you make a device do, the less it does well.
>>>> Smartphones are the perfect example. Jack of all trades, master of none.
>>>> Well a few brands have decent voice quality, so maybe master of one thing.
>>
>>> SDR don't make a lot of sense for circuitry planned to sell millions
>>> (if not tens of millions) units over the next few years.
>>> Specially for single frequency equipment that have no requirement for
>>> field upgrades.
>>> Besides companies like Garmin force customers to buy brand new units
>>> to get new features. When was the last time you saw a software upgrade
>>> for any Garmin handheld ? Products in the multi thousand dollar range
>>> do get some paid upgrades, but not<1000 USD products.
>>> SDRs are great for open flexible products and perhaps some low volume
>>> specialized receivers.
>>> In anything planned to ship millions of units bill of materials cost
>>> is paramount. The more functionality can be integrated into one large
>>> combo chip, the better.
>>> SDRs make sense for multi frequency, multi purpose stuff.
>>
>>> Marcelo Pacheco
>>
>> I flashed my emap more times that I can remember. I don't recall if I
>> ever flashed the GPSMap60.
>>
>> Incidentally, my Blackberry GPS claims 2 meter EPE. Reality, who knows.
>> It just bugs me to see people use smartphones as GPSs on the trails.
>> Depending on a phone gps is a bad idea. For one thing, slapping in a set
>> of AA cells isn't so simple. I have one of those AA to USB power
>> sources. Never even cracked open the plastic, but I carried it for a few
>> years for emergency purposes. When the EU forced all phones to go
>> microusb, I didn't bother to get another one.
>>
>> A friend was trying to locate some coordinates with her iphone. Easily
>> off 50ft. I gave her an old Lowrance.
>>
>> It used to be in the day if somebody gave you some coordinates, you
>> could trust them. Nowadays you have to ask what gear they used to get
>> the coordinates.
>
> Did any of those re-flashing were for new functionality ? Bug fixes
> maybe. But new functionality, I think not...
>
> All kinds of devices should be built with the physical equipment
> designed to at least 5 yrs, allowing the customer to upgrade to use
> new functionality often.
>
> That's cheaper for the consumer, better for the environment, and might
> even be more profitable for the manufacturer.
>
> 10 yrs ago this might not be possible, even 5 yrs ago might have been
> a challenge. But today with very powerful low power consumption CPUs
> and DSPs, it would make far more sense to do it that way.
>
> One can hope.
The emap when introduced wasn't really ready for hiking. I forget the
limitations, but you can find posts on this newsgroup. The firmware
upgrades added features, at least at first, but this is way too long ago
for me to remember details.

I keep the emap for a backup. At this point it isn't worth much on the
used market, and I don't want to be far from a spare GPS should I be out
in the boonies.

I fired up the emap a few months ago. I forgot what a pleasure it was to
have a black and white LCD. You can actually read those screens in
daylight without having to hold it just right. Other than the stupid
memory modules and lack of WAAS, it was a decent GPS. Put it in the
rubber booty and it would lay flat on the dash. I really don't like the
potato design of the GPSMAp60, though the performance is obviously
better than the emap.

Back to SDR, at some point DSP becomes cheaper than hardware. I'm not
sure it ever becomes less power. Hardware is usually more reliable than
software solutions.